I have been reading a lot about public breastfeeding (or nursing as I prefer to say since I'm not a fan of saying "breasts" or any other word for that anatomy really:) and I just read one more thing with a lot of comments that outraged me. I thought I'd get it off my chest (really, no pun here) and vent a bit.
I realize, based on things I wrote when I was nursing my last kid, that I have a lot of people that disagree with me, but I hope that changes more and more throughout time. And right now I'm not really in a convincing mood, so this isn't going to be a nice cordial persuasive effort to say why it's okay and should be more than okay to nurse in public, I'm venting remember.
Here's the article that provoked the comments that steamed me: http://slatest.slate.com/id/2264879/?wpisrc=newsletter. I'll copy the brief article here but will leave you to read the intelligent comments.
Breastfeeding Moms Hold "Nurse-In" at McDonald's
When a manager at a McDonald's in Glendale, Az., asked one customer to leave because she was breastfeeding her child in the restaurant, she sparked controversy. Protesting the manager's decision, dozens of moms gathered at the McDonald's over the weekend to stage a "nurse-in," where they began breastfeeding at the same time. "This is not about me today, this is about showing support and the fact that McDonald's needs to change their policies," the woman who was kicked out said. Responding to the "nurse-in," the owner of this particular McDonald's said that the policies do not need to be changed because "it has never been our policy to ask nursing mothers to leave our restaurant," according to Consumerist. "This was a mistake. All employees are required to comply with local, state and federal laws." And Arizona law makes it clear that all mothers are allowed to breastfeed in any public place. The mothers weren't listening. "I don't know what's inappropriate about the most natural thing in the world, to feed your child the way your body was designed to feed your child," said one mother at the "nurse-in." "I'm here to show support for nursing moms, to show this is not something obscene or indecent, this is a normal part of having a kid," added another. "This is ridiculous. If someone pulled out a bottle, nobody would say anything. Just because it comes from a woman's anatomy, people have a problem," said a third woman at the event.
My husband and I have had many a talks about this topic and we don't agree on the details of it. He thinks it's great to nurse a baby, sees the benefits, hopes it will work out, wants me to be comfortable, etc. But we disagree on to what extent nursing moms should worry about how comfortable those around us are when we're nursing. Here's what I think:
I think a mom who wants to nurse her baby--wait, I should give you a brief bit of how much I enjoyed nursing first. It's mostly a nightmare experience for me because of all the infections and pain and endless required attachment that I felt suffocated by occasionally. There were times it was sweet, but once getting past the pain I always felt a little weird doing it and didn't like to share myself there quite so much and for so long. Hopefully, one of these kids I have things will be different and I'll love it, but in the past, it's been challenging. Just saying, it's not like I love the experience so I'd like to be as comfortable as possible. And now.
*I think a mom who wants to nurse her baby should be allowed to do so where she wants and when she wants--or more, when the baby wants and you can't really put those things on convenient timers. Trust me, I would've set mine to not go off during the night hours.
-that means that if I'm in a restaurant and my baby is hungry, I'd like to be able to sit there and feed my baby--yes, at my table. I was still figuring this out when I had Hazel as a newborn and we were eating at the Olive Garden and although I whipped out my cover, I was apparently making some uncomfortable, so I went to the bathroom to look for a more private place to nurse--you think they had one? No, they just had a regular bathroom with only the toilets for seats--and I'm not saying they're unusual, on the contrary, that's what I usually find in bathrooms.
So if restaurants would like to make things more comfortable for them, for the people eating there and possibly a nursing mom, put a comfy chair in the bathroom or a private place so she has the option. Instead, I toted my little baby off to the car, in the summer, in Dallas, when it was 104 degrees OUTSIDE the car. I tried to turn the ac on and off to keep us from dying out there, but also tried to save gas/$, so we were pretty stinkin hot. You think I'm ever going to make that mistake again? Which brings me to my next point.
*If a woman is nursing in public, I do think she should try to be discreet. So if I were to be eating in a restaurant next time I have a hungry baby, I'll just pull out my cover and will feed my baby at my table. To make my other half more comfortable, we might try to sit at a corner table when we're first seated and I might be more comfortable if I'm not facing the crowd, but if a woman is happy where she is and has the nursing thing figured out more than I ever did, I think she can stay put where she is. Although I have to say, I do prefer a cover up still since it really does make things just less distracting. But this brings me to another point.
*If it's hot out, you be the judge on what's hot, and you think that little baby in there might be suffering from being under a cover if you're using one, you do what is best for that baby and shouldn't be judged for taking that thing off. That said, I still prefer a little decency to try to be discreet instead of hanging your whole breast out.
*Don't get me wrong here, I think a woman should be able to nurse when and where, don't forget that, but I do think that since it's a pretty special part of anatomy that I grew up calling a "private part" and what I teach my kids is a "private part," I do think that we should treat it as such for the respect of ourselves, our bodies, and those around us. A breast serves more than one function, so I think that should be taken into consideration and as my husband would say, to protect any young men (or really adult men too), from seeing a breast whipped out. I agree that even if it has a baby on the end of it, it's going to get attention or he'll be trying to not stare, but it will be noticed, and I don't think that it really should be--the breast that is, not the fact that a baby is nursing--even if it is a natural thing.
*I don't think the argument that people made in the articles comments about taking care of your business is also natural but shouldn't be done in front of others is the same argument. At all. And I don't think I even need to explain why here, come on people, feeding your baby vs pooing in front of someone?
I'm sure I've missed some of my thoughts and I know this was poorly put together, but honestly, I'm exhausted, I don't feel so hot, and I'm just a little bothered by this topic (and have been) so I had to blow off some steam. And just to expound on my earlier thoughts: if I manage to make it to church with my two little kids in tow with a nursing baby, you can count on me not being thrilled with the suggestion to leave sacrament meeting to go to a nursing room which in the past has been cold, dark and stinky where often there is so much talking that I don't get to hear the talks over the loudspeaker and I don't get the spiritual feeding I came for. Unless it's the rare time I actually get the room to myself and it's a small slice of heaven since I don't have to watch my other kid(s) and can truly listen and enjoy:). Ah, and please understand I love talking to other moms, and it's fun and a good outlet--it's just if I make it all the way to church in one piece, I'd like to feel like I can sit in church and listen.
Anyone else notice the paragraph above is basically one sentence?
I'll end my rant now, but I want to share with you my friend Katrina's blog that she created to help kick the public's weirded-out-ness of nursing in public: http://www.atmothersbreast.com/. I like today's post since I so wish I could be that girl being able to walk, nurse, shop, and be modest at the same time without anyone else really even knowing--which is what I prefer since I don't like the attention when I'm nursing anyway. Way to go supermom whoever you are!
(The below pic is from Katrina's blog, who I haven't gotten permission to use this from yet, so I might be switching it out soon for another one--I just couldn't wait to post this and thought she took a great shot).
Q: Please tell me you think the comments are from crackheads. Or not, but that's really all I feel like saying since I'm not interested in arguing about this.
19 comments:
It's totally fine that you used the pic! I agree that people make some seriously stupid and flawed arguments about the whole breastfeeding in public thing. Whats amazing is that it really wasn't until formula got popular in the 50s and 60s that it was even an issue. Women nursed in public and even Church all the time without covers even and it was no big deal. We can get that back if us moms just keep at it!
Also, check this out: http://rixarixa.blogspot.com/2010/08/breastfeeding-history-moment-lds.html
Shows a drawing of a sacrament meeting from 1871 with women openly nursing in the congregation!
Okay, this is something I have very decided opinions about, so bear with me.
I have absolutely no desire to see other women breastfeeding without trying to be discreet about it. Even in the mother's lounge, I just don't want to see someone else's breast. I don't think we should abandon modesty, even if we are feeding children and it's a very natural thing to do. I feel very strongly about this; I feel like many women are so militant about their right to breastfeed wherever they want--and uncovered--that they end up alienating a lot of people because they're so in-your-face about it.
Do I think we should be able to nurse our children wherever we want? Absolutely. But I really think that we should make an attempt to be discreet about it. I can't help but think that people would be less bothered by it if there was an obvious effort to not scorch the eyes of random passersby.
And I know people always say, oh, well, my baby won't nurse with anything covering them, and I can understand that. But I think you can still make an effort to be quick, to be discreet, and not carry on conversations with your shirt up and the baby unlatched (sadly, I've seen this WAY too many times).
And for the record, I have managed to nurse three babies without ever "exposing" myself in public. Did it require a little ingenuity on occasion? Yes, and I'm fine with that. And I feel like it's much more okay for me to nurse in public when I AM making the effort to do so modestly and discreetly. Is it natural to feed a baby? Of course!! But that does not change the fact that some parts of our bodies just are not meant for public display.
Thanks Trina and Rach! I loved your link Trina and Rach I totally agree.
I agree with being discreet in most cases. I'm not going to hang myself over the table at a restaurant or in Sacrament meeting sitting near a man. It's distracting. But when I find myself at Nordstrom in the lounge area provided for comfortably nursing and changing my baby, I don't give a hoot if I see someone elses breast or if they see mine. When you're going into a room designed for that exact reason I think you should expect to see it. I'm not putting my breats on display, I'm feeding my baby. And at family gatherings with my husbands family I usually try to leave the room, but I won't exile myself to the basement or anything. I had 2 babies who were slow nursers, 20+ minutes each time, and who refused to have a cover over them. I told people in those cases, that if they were bothered by it, they could leave the room, because I was perfectly fine.
Anyway, I agree mostly that out in public women should do their best to be discreet.
isn't it funny? people don't make a big deal about how much they see due to a low cut shirt, but even if a woman is being discreet while nursing, she still gets comments, etc.
well said comments above. thanks for sharing.
I am all for being discreet. I would DIE if I was nursing in public and I came uncovered. For this reason, I usually try to find a private place to do it. I love breastfeeding my babies but I hate the worry about where to do it when I am out. I feel like I have to plan my life around breastfeeding and naps when they are little. I feel so liberated when they are done breastfeeding!
My opinion is this:
People who have problems with mothers who nurse in public are idiots.
That said, maintaining some kind of modesty while doing so is appreciated. I'm not going to get offended if I see an uncovered woman, and I have no problems nursing uncovered in public when I have to, but I prefer women (and myself) to be covered in public.
The argument about "saving" men (young and old) from a peek came up, so here's my opinion on that too:
We really don't do anyone any favors by remaining one of the only countries in the world to be so prude about it. I'm not saying to put yourself on display, but what damage is done if a male (or anyone, really) sees what you are doing?
Philip and Kirsten had it correct - nobody will ask a woman wearing an immodest top to leave a public space, but a nursing mom seems to be a mortal sin.
I find all these comments very interesting. This is an argument that will continue to go in circles forever. I think we can all agree that modesty is an issue no matter what you are doing.
In a room full of women, I don't really care. The relief society room is fair game. Any lady in there who knows what you are doing under your cover, and still gets upset, needs to take a deep breath and look elsewhere.
In a room with a mixed audience, which includes other peoples husbands and sons, it's fair to ask that we keep out of view with our bosoms. We have to plan these things. Sit in a pew, not and open backed chair. Sit by the wall or in the back where if you must nurse, it will go unnoticed. I'm sure the bishopric, who has a full view of all of us from the stand, would appreciate not knowing the bra colors of the congregation.
For that matter, they have provided a room with comfy chairs and the talks piped in. A comfortable room. If the talking is too much, it's more fair to ask the ladies to keep the chit-chat down, than to ask all the males to put up with us and our slurping babies.
I figure it's my husband's call when he's around. If it makes him uncomfortable because someone else might see under my shirt, then I don't mind finding another comfortable spot. Even if it means asking my mother-in-law if I can lounge on her bed with the door locked.
We do a lot of things for the sake of making other people more comfortable. We do most private things in private places. Be that getting dressed, nursing babies, or yes, using the facilities. When there is no other choice but to stop where you are and feed your baby, I don't see why we must take offense at being ask to be as discreet as possible. Just a nursing cover if that's all we can do, or finding a quiet private place.
Don't hate me Afton, I love ya!
When in public, I try to use a blanket to keep myself covered (although my baby doesn't like to be totally covered up). One time while nursing my baby in public, my five year old asked me why other people don't want to see our baby - it was cute - she had no idea the blanket was there to cover me up!
I have to admit, it made me laugh out loud when I opened your blog and saw that post title - I miss you!!
Wow. I was reading the comments on your blog and I had no idea some people still felt like we should cover or be discreet in front of other women - I guess I thought we had moved way past that. My opinion is that it has nothing to do with the comfort of the people around you and everything to do with the comfort of the woman nursing. If you've ever been to a foreign country, you've probably seen women nursing: because it's seen as natural there. The U.S. is just about the only place where there's a huge variety of opinions - including with LDS people. To me this just proves that's it's cultural, not natural to be so weird about mothers nursing.
Now, I will say that I'm typically a coverer - not in women's lounges, but in church, in a restaurant, etc., I do like to be discreet for MY own comfort level. Sure, there have been a few times when I didn't have a cover handy and I just tried to be discreet, or move to an area that is less visible, but I never felt guilty or worried about other people's comfort levels, I figure if it makes someone else uncomfortable, that's their problem for not respecting the amazing capabilities of the body: my baby needs to eat. I also have numerous friends who just nurse uncovered any time any place and I think it's great. I honestly think our society needs it.
In addition, when you consider all a mother does to get a baby here, all she does for it for YEARS after it's born, and when you compare that to the vulgarity that is spouted out in songs, or shown on even the most censored channels of public television, is it *really* such a big deal if a woman feeds her baby the way it's been done for millenia? I think there are bigger fish to fry.
I really liked the comment about how no one cares about if someone whips out a bottle. We really are an industrialized society if even when life is so fragile we would cheer for the mom who uses formula (which is fine, it's her choice), and suppress the woman who nurses her child.
I guess when all is said and done, I feel that the thought that "oh, I want to cover so that I don't make anyone else uncomfortable" is silly. If your baby needs to eat, feed it. Let everyone else worry about themselves. The first time someone nursed in front of me uncovered I was a little bit uncomfortable...and then I got over it and now it's no big deal. That's kind of what I want to say to society: get over it. Women have babies, it's why you're here, it's why we're all here. Because some woman was bold enough to just nurse her baby when it was inconvenient, and sometimes looked down on. It's all about the woman's comfort level. Which is why I cover for the most part - I'm not comfortable being exposed in public, I tend to be a private person already, but if a woman wants to nurse: let her nurse!!
Haha - so I'm pretty sure that you don't have to worry about sounding like a crazy...I just took care of that for you. =)
I love the comments, and Leesh, you don't sound crazy, you're perfectly rational and spot on if I do say so myself.
I loved your breast feeding blog entry! That was hilarious. There are some pretty fiesty women who commented on here if you ask me. holy nut cases. Maybe that's a little mean. I'm just tired and feel like pushing peoples buttons right now. I know, a great thing to do for entertainment :)
Um, wow does anyone else think people need to relax a little when discussing this topic?! What annoys me more than any of the breast feeding dilemma is HOW worked up people get sometimes like they have to defend their baby's honor or something (not you Afton). I love your ranting and raving and I think you're hilarious. I totally agree with you too which makes it even more fun to read your stuff. I love that you're brave enough to put your genuine opinion out there and invite feedback instead of assume your opinion is THE ONLY! But whoa to some of you other mamas, chilax! Dont take this comment too seriously either :)
A really interesting post, thanks.
A little distressing that people seem more worried about (in order of importance)...
Wheather their husband is upset by thier immodesty.
What other people's husbands or sons think.
What strangers think.
Then, and only then, how the mother (they)feel about the issue.
Perhaps we need to flip this on its head. Remember that the people who love us dont judge, and the people who dont love us dont matter.
Do what you feel comfortable with. No point in flopping it out if you are gonna feel weird about it. And no point in stressing about what people are thinking if you and your baby have an awesome feeding routine going.
I think being a new mum must be one of the hardest things in the world to cope with, and the last thing women should have to worry about is other people's opinions (they vary greatly and you never please everyone right?).
thanks again for a thought provoking post.
And to all the comments, they are all really good points from the heart.
I think you're all great and I think I agree with all of you on some level. Thanks for letting me rant, I started out irritated before reading the article so it just took off from there!
And Angie, I love my dear husband more than anything, and we're not exactly on the page--so no worries, of course I still love you! Life would be boring if we all agreed on everything.
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- Laura
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